[Transcript for 20-20 Show Between Barbara Walters and the Ramseys; Friday, March 17 2000; Source = Justice Watch Forum]

WALTERS: Good evening and welcome to 20/20 Friday. Tonight, a special hour the mystery, the tragedy, the case of John and Patsy Ramsey. As you know, three years ago, on Christmas night, their daughter, JonBenet, was brutally murdered at home. From the beginning, suspicion fell on her parents. It shadows them to this day. Could John and Patsy Ramsey have killed their own child in such a horrific way? Why did police suspect them? And if they didn't commit the crime, who did? Tonight, for the first time, the Ramseys tell me the story of their nightmare, hoping, they say, that their appearance here might draw out information about JonBenet's murder. For the same reason, they have written a book titled The Death of Innocence which is being published today. We will also show you for the first time on television, actual police photographs of the crime scene. Be assured they will not be overly graphic or distasteful. So, now, the Ramseys' story all the questions answered with no lawyers present no holds barred.

WALTERS: Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, did either of you have anything to do with the death of your daughter?

JR: No.

PR: No.

WALTERS: Mr. Ramsey, did you kill JonBenet?

JR: No, I did not.

WALTERS: Mrs. Ramsey, did you kill your daughter?

PR: No, I did not kill my daughter.

WALTERS: How do you feel when I ask you these questions?

PR: Insulted, pain, hurtful. How can I tell you how much I love my daughter. I love her from the depths of my being. It's just unimaginable.

WALTERS: Unimaginable, too, that the life of this 6yo could be snuffed out so suddenly and so viciously. JonBenet Ramsey was a child filled with promise.

PR: She was a ball of fire. She could stand on her head. She could hula-hoop. She was an entertainer from the word go.

JR: She was the spark plug in our family, that's how I looked at her. She kept things alive and going.

WALTERS: John and Patsy Ramsey had moved to Boulder five years earlier from Atlanta, with JonBenet and her older brother, Burke. The scars of two family crises seemed to be healing: Patsy's near-fatal bout with ovarian cancer, and the death of Beth Ramsey in an auto accident. She was the oldest of John Ramsey's three children from a previous marriage. John's software business was thriving, and to all appearances so was the family. Until that tragic Christmas Day in 1996. John and Patsy Ramsey returned home with JonBenet and her nine year-old brother Burke, after spending the evening with friends. They got back about nine o'clock. Everything seemed normal.

JR: We came home, went to bed. JonBenet was asleep when we arrived home. We took her to bed. And, uh, got Burke to bed. And went to uh went to sleep.

WALTERS: You took a Melatonin pill.

JR: Um hum.

WALTERS: So you slept soundly?

JR: Unfortunately, I did.

WALTERS: There was a family vacation planned the next day. Patsy Ramsey says she got up early to get ready, threw on the clothes she'd worn the night before, and started downstairs from her third-floor bedroom at about 5:30 a.m.

PR: And as I came to the bottom of the stairs there were three pages neatly laid across one of the rungs of the stairway. I turned around to start to see what it was and realized after I'd read the first couple of lines

WALTERS: It was a ransom note.

PR: Yes it was.

WALTERS: That said

PR: I believe it said listen carefully. Something like, 'We have your daughter.' And I just dashed back up those stairs as fast as I could and pushed her door open and she wasn't in her bed.

WALTERS: And then?

PR: Then I just screamed for John. Screamed.

JR: I knew from Patsy's tone of voice that something was very wrong. And I rushed downstairs and she told me there was a note and I read it.

PR: It was just so unbelievable. You just can't you can't

JR: It's hard to grasp.

WALTERS: The note said, we have your daughter in our possession. It demanded 118,000 dollars in ransom, threatened that JonBenet would be beheaded, and warned the Ramseys that they were being watched.

The note said if you do anything if police come, if FBI come-your daughter will die. You called 911.

JR: Yes I did.It would have been impossible to sit there and wait by ourselves.

WALTERS: You also called friends to come over. Was that wise?

JR: Your daughter is gone

PR: We were desperate, desperate.

JR: She's in the hands of a madman, and, and you reach out for any help you can get. If I have a regret it's I didn't get more help that morning.

WALTERS: The police searched your house but they didn't find JonBenet. But at one point you went downstairs and found an open window.

JR: Yes.

WALTERS: A window that you had broken yourself at one point to put your hand through and find the latch.

JR: Right.

WALTERS: That window was in a storage room at the rear of the house. It was on the other end of the basement from the room in which JonBenet's body would later be found.

WALTERS: What did you think when you saw this open window?

JR: I was a bit alarmed, but I was more alarmed with the Samsonite suitcase that was standing up below the window.

WALTERS: I have seen the actual police photograph that was taken of that window and the suitcase and there it was in full sight.

JR: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.

PR: It was out of place.

JR: It was out of place.

WALTERS So you thought perhaps

JR: It was

WALTERS: the kidnapper had gone through that window.

JR: I that was my first impression, yes.

WALTERS: Seven hours after the police first arrived it was now around 1:00p.m.the police asked you and a friend to search the whole house again. At that point you opened the door to the small room.Tell me about it.

JR: I knew instantly, instantly what I'd found. I'd found my daughter and

WALTERS What did you see?

JR: I saw her lying on the floor with a white blanket she was lying on a white blanket. Uh, her hands were tied above her head. She had tape over her mouth. Her eyes were closed. I immediately knelt down over her, felt her cheek, took the tape off-immediately off her mouth. I tried to untie the cord that was around her arms. And I couldn't get the knot untied. Umm she was cool

WALTERS: You felt she was dead. Did you scream?

JR: I screamed. I picked her up and I ran upstairs and I it was like a dream when you scream but you can't say anything. All you can do is scream. That's what I did.

WALTERS: You put

JR: I took her upstairs and, and laid her on the floor, and uh, still had a hope that she was alive.

PR: I remember walking in and seeing her lying there in front of the Christmas tree. And I looked at John and he said, she's dead. And it's nothing felt real. I felt like it was um&my life was in slow motion and this was not really happening. I knelt down over her and just laid my body on her body and my cheek against her cheek and it was cold. And I just kept saying, no no. You know, ask God ask God to raise her.

WALTERS: JonBenet's body was stiff she had apparently been dead for hours. An intricate noose apparatus called a garrote was tightly pulled around her neck, cutting into the flesh. She had been strangled to death. An autopsy would later reveal JonBenet had also suffered a skull fracture-the result of a blow to the head, and had been sexually molested. What had begun as a kidnapping case for the police was now a brutal homicide.

The police stay with you all that day and the following day. You felt that you were under their protection.

JR: Yes.

WALTERS: Beause you didn't know where this killer might have been. but it turns out that they were really scrutinizing the two of you that you were already suspects. Did you have any idea then that you were suspects?

JR: No.

PR: No.


JR: No. Not at all.

WALTERS: It was reported also Mr. Ramsey that shortly after you found your daughter's body, that you called the pilot of your plane to arrange a flight to Atlanta. Is that true?

JR: I did. We had been asked to leave the house. Within minutes of that happening the police took the house over. We had no where to go. Atlanta was our home. Uh, we lived in Atlanta for 25 years. That's where our family was. We wanted to go home.

WALTERS: During the day that your child was found and in the days following, Mr. Ramsey, there were reports from the police that you didn't seem distraught and you weren't sobbing. You seemed stoic. It was said you two rarely talked to each other. To them this made it look as if you were guilty.

JR: I've heard that. And I find that unbelievable. I've lost two children and for some one to tell me that I didn't act right, uh, I don't accept.

WALTERS: There is the impression that from Day 1 the two of you refused to cooperate with the police.

JR: No. That, that is a media myth. We met with the Police on the 26th. We met

WALTERS: And talked with them?

JR: And talked with them. Talked with them for hours on the 27th. When they asked us to come to the Police Station. We said you know yeah we want to keep working with ya but can't you come here? We can't go out. Patsy was in bed. Patsy was barely able to move. And all we asked was they come, come here. They said well no, we have paper work at the police station we might need to get hold of

WALTERS: OK. On the 27th a very good friend of yours Mike Bynam said to you I think that you should hire lawyers.

JR: Mike knew things that were going on that we didn't know. He knew that the police by that time were withholding JonBenet's body for burial. He also, based on his experience as a prosecutor and as a district attorney could see that the police were very quickly focusing on us as the killers.

WALTERS: Your lawyers advised you then not to submit to police questions. Why not, people say, wouldn't you have wanted to tell them everything?

JR: Well I don't recall that our lawyers told us at the time. We were perfectly willing and anxious to work with the police to find the killer. We had a higher priority at that point, and that was to bury our daughter.

WALTERS: But it would, in fact, be four months before the Ramseys would sit down with detectives for formal interrogation. There was a mutual distrust between the Boulder Police Department and the Ramsey family.

Why didn't you take a lie detector test?

PR: No one ever asked us

WALTERS: Really?

PR: to take a lie detector test.

WALTERS: Police never asked you to take a lie detector test?

JR: No.

PR: No. JR: I was asked, during my interview with Steve Thomas, a hypothetical question

WALTERS: One of the policemen.

JR: One of the policemen that investigated this murder. He said, if I were to ask you to take a lie-detector test, what would you say. And I said I would be offended. That's what I would say. I wasn't interested in proving my innocence at that point. That was a non-issue.

PR: We were frightened there was a murderer loose.

WALTERS: Mr. Ramsey, would you now take a lie-detector test

JR: I would, certainly.

WALTERS: Would you, Mrs. Ramsey?

PR: Yes, I would take a lie-detector test.

WALTERS: When you realize that you two were the prime suspects, what did you think, what did you feel, what did you say?

JR: Well we were outraged, we were shocked. How could they think that?

WALTERS: Mr. Ramsey, the police officer that day, Linda Arndt, said on this very program that when you put your daughter's body down, you looked straight into her eyes.

LINDA ARNDT: His face was just inches from mine.

WALTERS: And Linda Arndt said she felt then from your expression that the killer was in the house, and she was afraid of you.

JR: Well the question I would ask Linda Arndt. Has has she ever looked before in the eyes of a father who has just been told his 6yo daughter is dead? Lying there on the floor in front of him? I don't know what I looked like. I'm sure I was in agony. I'm sure I went into shock. Linda Arndt's ability to look in someone's eyes and determine they were a killer is a remarkable talent.

PR: You just can't believe it. I mean you we're we're suffering from having lost our child And then for someone to accuse you, it's just you can't believe that that would happen.

WALTERS: Why did they accuse you?

JR: I think the police looked at the situation and didn't apply a lot of logic to it. And said child murdered in the home, the book says the parents always did it. And that became the conclusion. The tragedy of the Police investigation was that it ended on December 26th.

WALTERS: The big question why did police suspect the Ramseys? Did Patsy Ramsey snap that night and strike out at her daughter? Or did John Ramsey sexually abuse his little girl as some think?

When I first told friends that I was going to interview John and Patsy Ramsey, the reaction was they're guilty. Although neither of the Ramseys has been formally charged with this crime, it seems much of the public opinion has already convicted them.

Do you understand why it is that so many people still think you are guilty?

JR: I understand that they've been told that by the media for 3 long years. I'm amazed that the whole world doesn't think we're guilty based on what they've been told.

WALTERS: Let me go through some of the major reasons why people feel you are guilty. The beauty pageants. If we had only seen pictures of JonBenet in in little jeans and a T-shirt there might not have been the same feeling. But what we saw in still photograph's and in videos was a child dressed like an adult. Very suggestive in many of these pictures. Lipstick, mascara. Moving around on the stage in these beauty pageants. To many people this looks perverted. Therefore, there's got to be something wrong here.

PR: There is something wrong here if someone thinks that looks perverted. JonBenet was an entertainer. She would entertain at the drop of a hat. Little girls dress up and play dress up.

WALTERS: You yourself had entered beauty contests.

PR: Yes.

PR: I'm a junior at West Virginia University.

WALTERS: So this was, what? Fun for you both to have her do this?

PR: It was the most wonderful time of my life. It's not unlike a father who enjoyed playing baseball as a child. He wants to impart that same love of the game with his his son or daughter. And there's just absolutely nothing wrong with it.

WALTERS: They called JonBenet a 6yo Lolita, a pint sized sex kitten.

PR: The people that that look at these things and see something perverted. That didn't come from JonBenet. That's coming from the viewer not the child.

WALTERS: So let me go through what the motives are. Motive #1: You are guilty Mr. Ramsey because there was some evidence that your daughter had been sexually molested.

JR: I know as best I can know as a father who was with his daughter every day that I was home. She was not sexually abused or molested before December 26th.

WALTERS: OK. But. On December 26th there are some indications that your daughter was sexually molested.

JR: Well that's

WALTERS: Therefore here's the motive um. You were doing it. Maybe you'd done it before. Maybe you just did it that night. Perhaps your wife discovered you. Whatever it was, JonBenet cried out you killed her.

JR: Well that's, fits right in the category of it could have been done by an alien as well. It makes no sense. There is no history. A person doesn't go throughout their lives as a normal human being. One night turn into a monster. Slaughter their daughter. Go to bed and get up and act normal from there on. That doesn't happen. In these kinds of cases, virtually all of 'em I suspect, where there is child abuse in a family there's a long history. And that's not the case in our family.

WALTERS: I have to point out that JonBenet's pediatrician who had been her pediatrician from birth has publicly said that he never saw any evidence of sexual molestation. There have never been reports from her school. And yet there is the suspicion.

JR: I would have given my life for JonBenet in an instant. I'm sorry that I couldn't have done it that night. Uh to be accused of harming my child in any way is beyond comprehension.

WALTERS: This is a very brutal murder, and yet some of the authorities have said that you staged this. that you loosely tied your daughter's hands. That you put the noose, the garrote, to make it look as if some terrible person had done this. That this whole picture was staged.

JR: Well, that's absurd. This was done by a terrible person. The garrote...was deeply embedded in JonBenet's throat. Her hands were tightly bound, I couldn't get the knot untied, I tried to get it untied, even before I brought her upstairs, The fundamental issue is no logic has been applied to any of this case. Why would I for example have staged this horrible scene, and then disturbed it myself, pulled the tape off her mouth, carried her upstairs, tried to untie the hands before I brought her upstairs. If I'd have staged it, I would've wanted the police to see it as I staged it. It's not logical. Makes no sense.

WALTERS: Let me give the motive that is ascribed to you, Mrs. Ramsey.


WALTERS: Was bed wetting a source of tension in your house?

PR: Absolutely not. All children have accidents.

WALTERS: The motive is that uh uh JonBenet wet her bed and that you got angry. You lost it. You snapped and you killed her perhaps accidentally. You were downstairs. Maybe she came down. She said mommy I wet my bed. You said again JonBenet! And you either pushed her or you hit her. Uh you were exhausted. You were furious. You did it.

PR: First of all we know from the evidence that this was a premeditated murder. The way in which she died. The garrote that was around her neck.

WALTERS: The noose.

PR: The tape

WALTERS: You could have done it. You could have gotten nervous.

PR: No. No.

WALTERS: And afterwards you could have done it. You could have awakened your husband and said I did this terrible thing John.

JR: But. But but Barbara.

PR: No. No.

WALTERS: And now we have to stage this. You know people have said this.

PR: Of course they've said it.

JR: But would you have a child. Would you get up in the middle of the night and slaughter your child? We're parents. We love our children. No

WALTERS: But what do you say when people say you just snapped. I mean. You know whatever it was. Something went wrong. You did this terrible thing. John then helped you. You staged this whole thing. You know.

JR: It's nonsense.

WALTERS: Maybe you don't even know that you did it.

PR: That's impossible.

JR: It's

PR: It's just it it's absurd.

WALTERS: I'm asking the questions you know that people

PR: I know.

WALTERS: that people have said. These are the two major motives. Either you sexually molested her or you snapped because primarily she was bed wetting.

PR: Let me tell you something. I am a cancer survivor of Stage 4 cancer. John has lost a child in an automobile accident. That completely changes your outlook when you are standing on the brink of death with a terminal illness your priorities suddenly line up in a row. And you know exactly what the important things are in life. And bed wetting is totally insignificant. I love my children. I wouldn't harm them for anything in the world. Now I don't know how you answer someone that continually accuses you of some absurd notion.

WALTERS: Did either of you for a moment suspect each other?

JR: No.

PR: Not for a minute.

JR: Absolutely not for a microsecond.

PR: Tom Haney, who is the detective, homicide detective from Denver, asked me that very question in my three-day interrogation. After three days of listening to him hammer me, I said, don't even go there. If I thought for one moment that JonBenet Ramsey was murdered by her father, we wouldn't be having this interview right now.

WALTERS: Three other family suspects were cleared by the police investigation. 9yo Burke Ramsey did not have the strength police believe the murder required or the ability to write the ransom note. John Ramsey's older son and daughter were not in Colorado that night. The police continued to focus on the parents.

Another major factor. The ransom note. The ransom note was written on a pad and a pen from your home.

PR: um hum.

WALTERS: And the question is, if the intruder was planning to write a note why wouldn't he or she have brought their own pad and paper?

JR: They knew that the less they brought in the house the better.

WALTERS: But they planned to write a note?

JR: Apparently.

WALTERS: Before or after the crime?

PR: I think

JR:I think the note was written before the crime was committed.

WALTERS: What has thrown great suspicion on you Mrs. Ramsey as you know is that some handwriting experts have said that there's a similarity between the writing on this note and your handwriting. This has been inconclusive. But the similarity of the handwriting is the strongest piece of evidence implicating you.

PR: Well if that's the strongest then there's not much of a case. Because we have had handwriting experts to look at my handwriting as well. And on a scale, I believe, of 1 to 5 with 5 being a totally incomplete match, I was rated at a 4.5. so they were there's very little.

WALTERS: In fact, law enforcement sources in Boulder, Colorado told me that media reports of similarities between Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the ransom note are quote grossly exaggerated.

WALTERS: One of the questions is, what reason would a kidnapper have for leaving behind both the ransom letter and the body.

JR: I hope to ask the killer that someday face to face. We believe that this was a kidnapping originally that went bad. Now this person, this creature, his mind doesn't work like ours. It's it's boiling. So whatever was going through this creature's mind we can't logically analyze and explain.

WALTERS: Another um indicator of your possible guilt to the Police and the FBI is time. Said that only you two had the time and the opportunity to commit the murder. Use the noose. This garrote. Carry the child downstairs. Write a two and a half page ransom note without the fear of being detected. If it were an intruder, this intruder would be afraid that you would wake up. That Burke would wake up.

JR: But

WALTERS: And yet all this time. This takes time.

JR: We believe that this killer came into our home while we were gone. Waited. Was there when we returned.

WALTERS: Waited hours.

JR: Waited hours.

PR: Um hum.

JR: Had plenty of time to write a ransom note.

WALTERS: When you were asleep.

JR: When we were asleep or perhaps before we even came home.

PR: We would have been gone from 3 to 4 hours that is plenty ample time

JR: You know I

PR: to find their way and learn their way around the house.

WALTERS: And be in the house when you return?

PR: Yes.

WALTERS: Does it sound possible that a killer would sit for hours and hours in your house

PR: That house is so rambling. There are so many hiding places. He could be hidden for a week and we wouldn't find him.

WALTERS: The intruder theory is the major point of debate in the Ramsey case. One of the mysteries cited in newspaper stories was a lack of footprints outside the house there was snow, but no footprints in the snow, the stories said, therefore no intruder. But these actual police crime scene photographs, taken early that morning, before JonBenet's body was discovered, show only scattered patches of snow around the house and clear paths to windows and doors. But mysteries abound in this case.

When Jon Benet's body was found there was one of her favorite nightgown's next to her. Her so-called Barbie nightgown.

PR: Um hum.

WALTERS: And so there was the impression that whoever did this cared about this child. Left the nightgown. Left the blanket.

PR: Um hum.

WALTERS: Again. Oh her parents did it but they, they loved her so they tried to comfort her even in death.

JR: That's a very strange that nightgown should not have been there. It's it's a clue of some type. We don't know what. Look, we know several very positive facts about this killer we believe. It's a male. It's a pedophile that looks at young female children much differently than you and I do. They look at 'em with sexual eyes. I thought about it every day for 3 years. I've talked to experts. I've talked to experienced homicide detectives. It's the best profile we can come up with.

WALTERS: So, could there have been an intruder? Coming up, a mysterious shoe print, a palm print, DNA material and we'll show you the curious marks on the little girl's body evidence that raised intriguing questions about who killed JonBenet. If not the Ramseys then who?

In 1998, the top two detectives on the Ramsey case quit in protest. Police detective Steve Thomas said he left because he felt the Ramseys should have been arrested. The chief investigator for the DA's office resigned because he felt the investigation unfairly focused on the parents. His name is Lou Smith.

Lou Smit is probably the most experienced homicide detective in Colorado. He was brought into the Ramsey case by the District Attorney after the DA's office lost confidence in the Boulder Police Department. Smit developed his own theory of the case that widened the gap with the police department: he became convinced that a stun gun, like this one, was used on JonBenet. A stun gun delivers an electric shock that incapacitates the victim. Smit noticed marks, reproduced in this sketch, on the autopsy photographs of JonBenet's body. The autopsy report referred to them simply as abrasions but they reminded Smit of a previous stun gun case. There were two sets of marks on JonBenet's body, and when Smit calibrated their measurements, he felt they matched up with this popular stun gun model, the Air Taser.

He felt the Stun gun was used and that's what kept JonBenet quiet. But there is no proof of that.

JR: Well I have not heard any expert disagree with that theory first of all.

WALTERS: Well some of, some of the Police do not think there was a Stun gun.

JR: Well I don't consider the Boulder Police experts in homicides. That's one of the problems we've been dealing with.

PR: The Police don't like that theory because it doesn't match up with the parents did it. If the parents wanted to bring their child to a basement quietly they wouldn't have to use a Stun gun. They would just say, come on, we're gonna go to the basement for a surprise or something. You know that doesn't fit their theory that John or I were involved.

WALTERS: Why wasn't the body exhumed?

JR: Don't know why the Police didn't consider that. we were asked when this theory first surfaced about a Stun gun that if the body were exhumed it could be proved conclusively but it had to be done fairly quickly. This was within months of when we'd just buried JonBenet. And I, as her father, could not bring myself to do that. I had laid my child to rest. She was at peace. And that was a that decision I couldn't make.

WALTERS: Even though it might have cleared you?

JR: It wasn't that was not the priority. The priority was my child was at rest.

WALTERS: Let me talk about some of the evidence that um some people may not know about. DNA was found under JonBenet's fingernail's and also on her panties.

JR: Um hum.

WALTERS: This DNA does not match yours, your son's any member of your family or indeed anyone whom the Police have questioned.

JR: That's correct.

WALTERS: And there was a palm print on the door of that room in which JonBenet was found. That print matches no one that any one has tested and there is a visible shoe print with the name High Tec clearly visible in the room in which your daughter's body was found. The Police have not been able to match this print, this shoe, this DNA to anyone.

JR: That's correct.

PR: Exactly.

JR: And that's what gives us hope that we can find the killer.

WALTERS: You think that's what shows that you're innocent?

JR: I think that will lead us to the killer. I don't accept that as proof that we're innocent. Our our objective is to find the killer. That's the only way we will prove our innocence. Sadly.

WALTERS: Do you think the murderer is some one you know?

JR: I don't know that I knew this person or not. I hope I don't.

PR: I can't believe that we have ever knowingly met any one that can be this vicious. But some one killed our daughter. So we have to start looking. We start at the inner circle and keep moving out.

WALTERS:The Ramseys start with the "inner circle" because they say the murderer was familiar with their family perhaps even to the point of knowing that John Ramsey's year end bonus was 118,000 dollars the amount demanded in the ransom note. In their book, the Ramseys suggest that the police look harder at a handful of suspects who had dealings with the family. But high-ranking law enforcement authorities in Boulder tell me that all of the people on the Ramsey's list have been, quote, "thoroughly investigated and are not currently under suspicion," unquote.

If the murderer was a pedophile, a sexual predator, do you ever reproach yourself for letting JonBenet appear so publicly in pageants and parades where she could have been seen?

PR: Well, I think that is probably one thing that I if I had to do over again would be much more cautious about.

JR: There there's no question we were naive. We were we were ignorant of the fact there are evil people in the world.

WALTERS: The Ramseys lost their naivete and their privacy overnight. Reporters clamored for comment and the fact that there was no comment didn't stop the tabloids. The supermarket press hounded them to the point of libel, they said, infiltrating their neighborhood, their church, even their cemetery.

JR: We've been under siege for almost 3 years. Hidden cameras were planted at the gravesite. Hidden video cameras. People would call on us under false pretense and say they were some one they weren't.

WALTERS: How did you get through all this? The reports. The constant television?

PR: Barbara I have lost the most precious thing in the world to me. I lost my child. My little girl JonBenet. I have been as low as you humanly can go. You can kick me when I'm down but you can't take me any lower. Cause I'm hurt as badly as I can be hurt.

WALTERS: Do you dream about JonBenet?

PR:Yes I do.

WALTERS: What do you dream?

PR: I dream there's my dreams are so vivid that I feel like I've spent the whole night with her. And when I wake up in the morning then I realize that the day is the nightmare. Because I've had such a wonderful, lovely time with JonBenet all night long.

WALTERS: What has this done to your marriage?

JR: I think it's strengthened our love. For each other.

PR: I can't imagine what I would do without John to lean on.

WALTERS Did either of you ever considered suicide?

JR: I have to admit that yes I did.

WALTERS: You did too?

PR: Yes. But we have other children. They need us now more than ever. So we have to be strong for them. That's the only reason that we have to go on.

WALTERS: You were carrying something when you came in here

PR: Just a little little glove.

WALTERS: And you did not ask to show this I have to point out. I saw you walking in carrying something. This is a glove that was JonBenet's?

PR: Yes. Um hum.

WALTERS: Do you carry this all the time?

PR: I usually have something of her's with me all the time. I uh found this just recently when I had opened some boxes for the first time that I hadn't seen since we left Colorado. And um. You know to think that her little hand was was in this glove and there's a little spot here where she obviously spilled something. And um. It makes me sad that that you know there were happy little hands in this glove. Now they're gone.

JR: Ok sweetie. It's okay. It's okay JonBenet's OK. She's with us.

WALTERS: Grieving parents still under suspicion. In 1998, a grand jury began to consider all the evidence. During those months John and Patsy Ramsey swore their innocence but prepared for the worst.